It seems everywhere I look, in the local area, there is something about District voting V. at large voting. Lawsuits have been filed. But is district voting really what liberals want? I don’t think so.
Potter county is essentially a square. Let’s say we divide that square into four or even as they desire eight section’s. Lets run four or eightstraight lines from the North to the South, set so as to contain an equal amount of people. Would they be happy? No, that’s not what they want. So let’s run the lines East and West. Nope! I suspect the lawsuit would go forward.
Let’s define balkanization according to dictionary.com;
balkanization
Division of a place (district) or country into several small political units, often unfriendly to one another. The term balkanization comes from the name of the Balkan Peninsula, which was divided into several small nations in the early twentieth century.
Or from Wikipedia;
Balkanization is a geopolitical term originally used to describe the process of fragmentation or division of a region or state into smaller regions or states that are often hostile or non-cooperative with each other. The term has arisen from the conflicts in the 20th century Balkans. The first balkanization was embodied in the Balkan Wars, and the term was reaffirmed in the Yugoslav wars.
So what do the liberals want? What would make them happy? I suspect nothing would ever make them happy but I knowwhat they want. Again I’ll turn to Wikipedia for an answer. I will make slight changes to better fit this situation, that all reading will recognise. The meaning won’t change.
Beggar thy neighbour, or beggar-my-neighbour, policies seek benefits for one district at the expense of others. Such a policy attempts to remedy an economic problem in one district by means which tend to worsen the problems of other districts.
Also from Wikipedia see;
The tragedy of the commons is a type of social trap that involves a conflict over resources between individual interests and the common good. The term derives originally from a parable published by William Forster Lloyd in his 1833 book on population. It was then popularized and extended by Garrett Hardin in his 1968 Science essay “The Tragedy of the Commons”. However, the theory itself is as old as Aristotle who said: “That which is common to the greatest number has the least care bestowed upon it”.
Pay particular attention to the last statement by Aristotle, and remember along with Socrates and Plato, Aristotle was one of the most influential of the ancient Greek philosophers. They transformed Greek philosophy into the foundations of western culture as we know it.
Why do people want to come to the US? Most will say for better opportunites, jobs, better lives for thier families. And I suppose at a midlevel that is true. But at the base, at the very foundation they come here because their own country sucks (it’s a desert or the number of people have ruined the land). Their own culture sucks (Islam tribalism feudalism). Their own government sucks (communism, again Islam). And at the top level they come here because the United States is the best country in the world, because it has the best culture in the world, because as a republic it has the best Government in the world. The closest thing to a real Democracy ever conceived.
So what do liberals really want? It is easily seen in the requirements set forth in the proposal defeated last November and referenced above;
The city’s charter would have been amended to increase the number of city commissioners from four to eight and commissioners would have been required to live within their districts and be elected by voters in their district.
Back to my statement about those nice neat straight lines across Potter or Randall counties. If the proposal would have passed the next thing in court would have been how to divide the county. The eight districts would not be enough. Here we need another definition, and description of the next legal battle. Again from Dictionary.com;
gerrymander
US politics. the dividing of a state, county, etc. into election districts so as to give one political party a majority in many districts while concentrating the voting strength of the other party into as few districts as possible.
This is what liberals want. They want balkanization. They want eight districts divided by race and culture. They will gerrymander those eight districts to ensure a black, a hispanic a Vietnamese, even as some at that other site would love a gay. they don’t want just Amaerican’s. Americans of a generally similar mind and thought. They want balkanization and conflict it is sure to cause.
They will ensure cultures that suck gain a voice. They will push the total failure that is multiculturalism while trying to suppress western culture. The push for the socialism liberals want will quicken.
A government that has run well since 1913, will become a government that is constantly at odds over every issue that comes up. The forced transfer of wealth from those who work and participate fully in the American dream, to those who refuse to participate, refuse to adopt western culture, refuse to even speak the language will accelerate. The failures of these people and cultures so evident in the places they originate from will become the failure here. Those failures will be forced upon us by law as will the costs. The desire for eight districts, is really a desire to enable the minority to silence the majority. The bitterness we see in the Nations legislature will now be in our City.
We must not allow, or even be complacent about what is really happening here.
Those who refuse to be American, who refuse to adopt western culture, who refuse to work or speak the language do not deserve to be Americans. They do not deserve to have a voice in a republic they don’t believe in. Look at Haiti, look across our southern border at the towns there. Look at New Orleans, Detoit even the Nations capital where these policies have long been in effect. Look at the condition of the countries that still try to live the Communists dream. Look at those places and you will see our own future, if the great American melting pot is destroyed by things like district voting.
Heed the words of Aristotle “that which is common to the greatest number has the least amount of care bestowed upon it”. That was likely a warning. We should take it as such. It is the foundation for all that has made this country great.
This all is an attempt by liberals to legislate equality, but remember in a land where men are free there will never be equality and in a land where all men are equal there will never be freedom.
Just how do you know that conflict would arise from the partition of the districts? It hasn’t been tried here and without a crystal ball or some other future telling device we aren’t going to know just what would happen if the districts were divided.
Furthermore, there are a lot of towns with single member districts and they do just fine.
You don’t know that either. We don’t know how it would be divided at all.
That may very well be the result, but you have no proof and didn’t state any proof that liberals want that at all.
Of the local liberals who have spoken on the issue thier intentions on this issue are noble. Fact is people aren’t being fairly represented on the city council.
Tell me, how would you feel if some guy from Lubbock or Midland was making decisions about Amarillo in either the state house or US house? On a local scale, how are a group of primarily white rich people going to represent people of a differnt socio-economic status in a part of town they no practically nothing about?
That’s the basis issue. I have seen no evidence of what you speak and I think you ought to back your accusations up with proof.
–Furthermore, there are a lot of towns with single member districts and they do just fine.–
There are allot more that don’t. There are a lot of countries that don’t. There are allot of area’s of the world that don’t. In fact I would like to to hear from you any that work better than the current type of system. I don’t know of any.
Muliticulturalism is a dismal failure. I surprised you seem to be defending it. People and culture’s that are inherantly opposites cannot live together. These are things wars are fought over.
–You don’t know that either. We don’t know how it would be divided at all.–
We know exactly how it will be devided. The wording is in the proposal. Here it is again.– The city’s charter would have been amended to increase the number of city commissioners from four to eight and commissioners would have been required to live within their districts and be elected by voters in their district.– You have to read between the lines but only slightly. If the lines are nice straight N to S, or E to W, I’d have no problem with it.
–That may very well be the result, but you have no proof and didn’t state any proof that liberals want that at all.–
I gave plenty of links to proof of past efforts and results of balkanization. Multiculturalism is balkanization. Will it fail and lead to this in this particular case? I can’t prove that, only the future will tell I can only take lessons from the past.
–On a local scale, how are a group of primarily white rich people going to represent people of a differnt socio-economic status–
I hate to point it out but I am being represented by rich white people and am of a diffferent socio-economic status. I like the system. For the most part they follow the ref. I provided above from Aristotle.
–I have seen no evidence of what you speak and I think you ought to back your accusations up with proof.–
I provided many links that covers this issue from several diffent angles, I hope you had the time to read them.
I know of two off the top of my head. The Texas house of representatives and the US house of representatives. Each state is dividided into districts on state and local levels that elect representatitives for both the texas congress and US congress.
Otehrs might be local school boards.
Borger where I grew up has single member districts and they do just fine. Better or not is an opinion. Fair or not is a fact.
Where, once did I advocate multiculturalism. Maybe if you stretch what I said and make assumptions on my beliefs to construe as such you can come to that conclusion. Please, explain to me what I said that advocats multiculturalism.
Bullcrap. You’re making assumptions. I have read all the articles and none of them describe how the disctrics would be divided. What you quoted is not proof of how they would be divided either. All it says is that districts would exsist.
The definition of Balkanization and even past events does not prove that people advocating single member districts for Amarillo, Texas would be at conflict with each other.
Is there conflict between Districts 13 and our surrounding districts 19 and 17? Is Texas Balkianized? No, its not. What proof do you have the people advocating single member districs want that? None.
Definitions of words and terms don’t prove people’s intent.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.willisms.com/archives/currentdistricts.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.willisms.com/archives/2006/07/tweaking_the_ma.html&h=446&w=500&sz=54&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=VNINN4Zvui1mpM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGerrymander%2522%252B%2522Texas%2Bredistricting%2Bmap%2522%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
I’m not sure if the above is going to wrk as it is a picture of the Texas districts as affirmed in In Lulac v Perry and the league of latin voters v Perry. I wonder what would have come of a challenge by a league of white voters v. texas. But that is another debate.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/28/AR2006062800660.html
The fight over districting in Texas was a big part of Delay’s fall.
Check these articles I’ll get back with more later.
When you look at the map be sure to read the PDF link.
Itried to post a lengthy reply last night I think maybe it was to long, so I’ll break it up and retry tonight.
Dude, do I need to start watching for your new best seller? “Left Turns”. LOL.
Let’s start simple then get more complex.
–Borger where I grew up has single member districts and they do just fine. Better or not is an opinion. Fair or not is a fact.–
First of all you apparently don’t know how Borger City Government works.
http://www.ci.borger.tx.us//City%20Government.htm
–The City of Borger is a Home Rule City governed by a Council/Manager style of government. The citizens elect 5 council members at large to three year staggered terms. Each May, the Council members then elect one of their own to serve as Mayor.–
You don’t even elect your Mayor in Borger.
–The Texas house of representatives and the US house of representatives.(work better than the current type of system)–
Do you really believe the crap going on with Pelosi, Reid, Kennedy, Durban et al is not balkanization, conflict at it’s worse. Both parties, for the most part,full of scandal, schemes, and lies. Interested only what is good for them. Caring not what is good for America.
At any rate these types of districting were set by the founding fathers of both the Federal and Texas government’s. As envisioned the districting was by population, with some gerrymandering for party favoritism.
Not until the voting act of 1965 did race and culture start to fit into the picture. But the national and state level isn’t what we are really talking about here although it is the same crap.
–Otehrs might be local school boards.–
Wrong again;
http://www.amaisd.org/index.php?page=board/about.php
–SCHOOL BOARD ELECTIONS Board elections are held in even years on the first Saturday in May. Board members are elected for four-year terms on a rotating basis. Trustees are elected according to an at-large cumulative voting method.–
And to an earlier question.
–Tell me, how would you feel if some guy from Lubbock or Midland was making decisions about Amarillo–
John T. Smithee does represent multiple cities. Check out this as an example of gerrymandering.
http://www.vcsnet.com/TX/Hse/State.shtml
Our Texas Senator does represent Amarillo and Midland.
I suppose if we follow the proposed Amarillo districting plan and extend it to all of Texas, each town should have it’s own Rep.and Senator also.
–Where, once did I advocate multiculturalism.–
You answered this yourself.
–On a local scale, how are a group of primarily white rich people going to represent people of a differnt socio-economic status–
If not as I stated, then how else would this destruction of this white rich people thing happen? As far as multicultural, are you saying that those of a different culture should somehow be excluded from this division? It’s the crucible of what this issue is about. You can’t be for one and not the other.
I notice you failed to respond to my statement that nice straight lines dived into equal numbers of people would be OK with me.
Nor did you speculate on what you think will happen.
Now, consider these words from the pledge of allegiance;
–One Nation under God Indivisible–
God is pretty much gone from our government, it’s the ‘One’ that is now under attack. The weapon of choice? Division.
Liberals seek to accentuate what is different rather than what is the ‘One’. They have put diversity on a pedestal, represented as somehow superior to the ‘one’. Same with non American/Western cultures. The division that will be caused by multi district voting is a tool to effect that goal.
–What proof do you have the people advocating single member districts want that?(conflict)–
Try this;
http://amarillo.com/stories/041006/immigrationprotest.shtml
–Many waved American and ‘Mexican’ flags and held signs. They shouted, in Spanish: “We can do it.”
One sign read in Spanish, “Quorums lyes justs para Nestorius, Los immigrants,” or translated, “We want just laws for us, the immigrants.”–
I think that last sentence should read we want laws just for us. Redistricting will achieve that.
Or maybe this;
http://amarillo.com/stories/041506/new_4453612.shtml
–Freshman Connor Lyons arrived at Tacos High School on Thursday to see students marching and carrying Mexican flags, he said.–
Surely this tells the story. This is Jose Angel Gutierrez, supposedly American professor from UT in Arlington.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIW-BZ8oLrk
How about this;
http://amarillo.com/stories/050805/new_cinco.shtml
Or this;
http://amarillo.com/stories/050605/new_1870334.shtml/
Want to explain how people who claim to want to be Americans are marching in many cases rioting, waving Mexican flags and celebrating Mexico’s independents? Want to speculate on how this nobility you are for is not multicultural? How this is not going to cause conflict?
My choice would be that the birth right amendment be revoked an all non citizens be removed. For those other’s who left countries that ’suck’ and entered legally, becoming American in language and thought should be mandatory, or they too, should be removed. I’m not saying a past life should be forgotten. I know I’m a Scot. But first I’m American.
The attack by liberals is multi faceted. They attack American culture and values. They destroy faith and promote every kind of perversion and division imaginable. They blow the first amendment totally out of proportion while trying to kill the second. (tyrants hate guns)
More anti American cultures than even I know, are racing for a free meal at our table of plenty. Some very dangerous ones seek their Paradise here.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55049
Liberals are more than willing to help. Driven by their blame the USA first policies. Or more specifically blame White’s and Western culture first.
Liberals have noble goals? Not in the real sense of the word.
–of an exalted moral or mental character or excellence; lofty: a noble thought.–
Perhaps in their emotionally driven views, but not in any sense of reality.
Don’t know what else to say. If your mind is made up then you have your right to do so. Doesn’t really matter anyway as soon by election or by some liberal judge it will happen. At least one of us will get to say I told you so.
You need to ask questions instead of making assumptions. You thinkig me saying all liberals inteions are noble has my blood boiling. I feel sorry that you wasted your time replying to me based on that assumption.
Local politics isn’t about Liberal/Conservative.
Hmm, then what was I thinking of I wonder.
Name one politition that does care about what is good for America.
So our current state and federal governments balkinized, according to you? What is the solution to that problem, then?
I was speaking more of the house than of the senate, but yah thats messed up. If I lived in Midland or Odessa I wouldn’t be happy.
Ah, so then you’re full of shit, I see. That pisses me off that you admit that, yah, if you twist my words and make assumptions from there that I advocate multiculturualism.
I dunno, what does the destruction of rich white people have to do with anything? More assumptions again?
No, I never said that or inferred that at all and any conclutsion to that is an assumption on your part.
Besides that fact that straight lines would be impossible that is exaclty how it would end up. You haven’t provided any proof otherwise except for articles detailing hispanic gatherings.
I think it would happen just as you describe only within the realy of physical possibilty.
The states, counties, congressional districts, have all existed for hundreds of years and hardly any of what you speak has come to pass.
What do Hispanic events have to do with Liberals wanting to divide Amarillo and spread communism?
They walk.
Because the districts woulnd’t be divided by race.
Sounds like an illegal immigraiton issue, to me, not a single member districts issue.
Again, you make assumptions to your detriment. Local liberals who are advocating single member districts have noble goals as far as that one issue goes.
I doubt single member districts will happen here for quite a while one way or the other.
Hey this is just a debate. I’m not trying to anger anyone here I had no idea that this issue would be supported here.
You didn’t answer a single question I posed, so I suppose you really are upset by this, not my intention. If you go back and really read all that I linked to I think you might start to understand what I’m saying. I really thought you guys would understand all this. It wasn’t really posted for you or CT, but for other readers coming through. Your question’s gave me the chance to further explain which is good.
I certainly know you don’t believe all liberal goals noble. And I really can’t see where I implied other wise unless your referring to me saying no liberal goal is noble in reality.
It really just boils down to one man one vote, and that’s the way it was until the voting rights act of 65. After that districts were gerrymandered into just another form of racial quota’s. It was the beginning of diversity/ multi culture crap.
My apologies for any misunderstanding. you can delete the post if you want.
CT why are you dodging the bullet’s?
Debates are had with facts and reason, not assumptions.
What pisses me off is that without asking any clarification of what I mean you attack me for “endorsing multiculturalism” when I clearly did not. After that you write several paragraphs on the notion that I think all liberals intentions are noble when if you had asked you would discover that is not the case.
To continue:
I know what you’re saying. I know what the definition of all the words you posted about.
My point is that the local liberals don’t have any of what you say in mind and you have provided no proof of that except for what you think will happen based on hispanic gatherings and the definitions of gerrymandering and balkinization.
My point is that as far as local politics goes you can’t distinguish between liberal/conservative. Take Abe Lopez for example. That guy is a Democrat but I know many many conservatives that voted for him. He is probably democrat in name only. Take the recent proposal to ban smoking in restaurants. Ther were people on both sides of the isle.
My point is that on one hand you say balkinization is bad but here the states, counties, and congressional districts have been balkinized since their inception. How can you have it both ways?
I know gerrymandering is bad but you also have to have proof there as well. If it is as easy as you say it is, to look at a map and say, oh well that’s gerrymandering doesn’t make it so. You need to back it up.
I know concentrated groups of hispanics not integrating into American society is bad and is detrimental to our strength as a nation. But saying that single member districts, of which you have no proof of how they would be divided, of which no one has seen a single draft or proposal as to how they would be divided, would somehow soldify that hispanic community is bogus until you know with absoute certainty that the lines drawn would divide communities by race.
I am not going to delete anything.
We will see. It will happen soon, probably next election and we will revisit this issue. Wanna bet a beer on what happens?
Sure, what are your terms? I’ll bet a case of beer.
Alright were on for a case. I say the city will be devided along racial lines that will ensure minorities have at least if not more votes on the council, resulting in much arguements and conflict. Higher taxes and more money will be deverted from civil projects for social programs and general maintenence of the city will decline. State your terms and who’s closest to right, wins. It will take awhile before it all becomes clear but in the meantime, I like Coors long necks.
(I) don’t know how I surfed here, probably because I lived in Amarillo 2 years and was looking back at the “no Spanish in the house” court judgement from the mid-1990’s. (This blog) started out as refreshingly “conservative” but then I got lost in the half-assed English. It is hard to follow and a pain to read. (That is) ironic considering the implulse that brought me here. (I added) parenthesis here to include what he (the original writer) was too lazy to do.
Scott, talk about hard to follow, I’ve no clue as to what your trying to say here. Sorry
celtictexan,
I apologize, and wish I could delete that. I replied to the wrong post. I meant to reply to one that was rife with sentences that were missing subjects. I should probably just shut up now.
no prob